MSF Charity + Chance to pick my brain for 2 hours!

TritonAlias Says:

Sep 14, 2009 - Show me my free will, please. Just because we're decision-making creatures doesn't necessarily mean we have this long-sought-after Free Will. A piece of iron is a decision-maker, too, when it encounters a magnetic field--if it's encountering one side of the field, it turns one way, and if it's encountering the other, it turns the other way. We're a bit more complex, but where's the "free" aspect of will? A man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills.

maxbigwood Says:

Sep 15, 2009 - you really think free will doesn't exist?

TritonAlias Says:

Sep 15, 2009 - There are many degrees of freedom. As I said, a man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills. You said that the only things that happen in the world that are somewhat "evil" are what certain humans do, and we are responsible for our actions because we have "free will." It really isn't that simple, though. Animals eat other animals, even newly born/hatched ones. Is this not "evil?" A mentally retarded person cannot be held responsible for some of his/her own actions. Why not?

TritonAlias Says:

Sep 15, 2009 - I recommend "Freedom Evolves" by Dan Dennett. It'll certainly give you a new perspective on the nature of freedom, if you don't dismiss it outright. Before you read it, you might consider watching the video on YouTube "atheism as congruence" by TheraminTrees to help you avoid dismissing the book without a good reason. The book has little to nothing to do with atheism, but the video is about an aspect of the psychology involved in not having reality-reflecting beliefs (congruence).

TritonAlias Says:

Sep 15, 2009 - Another worthwhile book for helping to understand the nature of certainty and how it is almost certainly (?) not a thought, but an emotion, is "On Being Certain: Knowing You Are Right Even When You're Not" by Robert Burton. I don't agree with all his conclusions, but he convinced me to be skeptical of my own certainty for reasons I would never have dreamed.

ExtantFrodo Says:

Sep 15, 2009 - In the trillion trillion neural paths for any given decision tree there are very few thermodynamic coercions forcing one path over another. Bear in mind that for any given thought process a recursive loop can dredge up as much energy toll on an alternate node so all paths are more or less at equal compulsion. Time pressure forces most decisions out of contemplative mode and into action.

TritonAlias Says:

Sep 15, 2009 - I probably misunderstood, but it seems like you're saying that we make hasty decisions even though any possible decision is as likely as the next. That's not really true, if it's what you're saying. "All possible decisions" is a far more inclusive group than "decisions this brain can make," and even though a person is capable of making a decision, that doesn't mean the pathways for that decision are equally likely to be firing as another decision's pathways. Speculation isn't far away, either.

ExtantFrodo Says:

Sep 15, 2009 - hmm, how to elaborate and explain this more clearly... Take a choice with two possible actions. Take a bugs brain that is hard wired to avoid light. The action potentials are very clearly defined. Take those same neurons and set the bug in a shadowless uniformly illuminated box. Our decisions are like the state of those neurons in that environment. Except that we model virtual environments and explore possible courses of action within them. A deficient model will affect what decisions may result

TritonAlias Says:

Sep 16, 2009 - Interesting. I'd like to know more; could you suggest some reading?

ExtantFrodo Says:

Sep 16, 2009 - oh gosh. My reading on this ranges from Kurzweil to Goetz and tons of AI research, to long term studies on the behaviors of genetic algorithms and investigations of Scenarios where events with zero thermodynamic differences prevail. Like evolution.

ExtantFrodo Says:

Sep 16, 2009 - Where there is no thermodynamic difference(TDD) between two options, there is no entropic compulsion for either. There is zero TDD between COPYING mutation A vrs copying mutation B. There is zero TDD between CULLING mutation A vrs culling mutation B. The environment pushes and life pushes back. Complexity happens.

ExtantFrodo Says:

Sep 16, 2009 - this ZTDD notion hit me like a ton of bricks. It is applicable to evolution and it was also applicable to complex neural nets. When the TDD is below the noise level then an entirely different level of organization is at play than the common "path of least resistance" that rules much of the universe.

TritonAlias Says:

Sep 16, 2009 - Complex understanding usually takes a lot of time (and a lot of information); I didn't ask for the book that would bring me to your level of understanding; I just asked for some suggestions. :) Kurzweil and Goetz it is...

TritonAlias Says:

Sep 16, 2009 - Yes, I realize this analogy is a bit off the mark. Human experiences do have a huge impact on behavior, though, so a large portion of the freedom in free will is negated by our experiences (or lack thereof). And our capability to experience anything (and the limits to that capability) are genetic, again taking away some of the freedom in free will. That's all I meant.

ExtantFrodo Says:

Sep 16, 2009 - I almost agree with you. We are learning that neuroplasticity is capable of remarkable achievements. Direct neural input to electronic sensors have demonstrated that the brain is quite capable of processing those data feeds and making sense out of them (Even when the sensor is completely different from any natural ones) Google Kevin Warwick Cyborg for more on that. We are building virtual environments that are limitless (Well, virtually limitless. hehe) Freed free will is our destiny.

TritonAlias Says:

Sep 16, 2009 - Well, I *do* agree with you. I didn't say anything about the future--only about now. Even now we have some types of freedom worth wanting, but when someone pulls out the Free Will Card as if it is the trump of trumps, it is worth mentioning that we're not as free as some people seem to think.

owlcowl Says:

Sep 18, 2009 - Sharp observation, TritonAlias (son of NeptuneAlias?): Infinity is by its nature beyond human cognitive reach, so it really functions as a conceptual placeholder. So when theists describe god as "omnipotent", they dont really mean it, since in the interest of theodicy, they must perforce admit all manner of limitations constraints on god's actions, automatically nullifying omnipotence, aseity, the first cause argument. BUT THEY STUBBORNLY REFUSE TO ADMIT THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEYRE DOING!

owlcowl Says:

Sep 18, 2009 - Thanx for the reading tip re the Burton book, Triton. I'm certain i will find it quite fascinating... er, no, scratch that. Regardless, i have certainly (oops) found the exchange between you and ExtantFrodo (great user name) to be quite fascinating informative. I feel i really have nothing to add to it, but at least i'm free to compliment both of you for its high quality....oh, shit, i did it AGAIN!

ExtantFrodo Says:

Sep 19, 2009 - my omnipotent god is WAY stronger than any theists omnipotent so called god. :-) My god makes gazillions of universes every freaking nanosecond . Billions and billions and billions of them. in fact there's no end to the universes he make because many of them are self replicating universes that make billions and billions and billions of universes. And all that before he even THINKS of moving. People don't know omnipotence for real. HEHE.

owlcowl Says:

Sep 20, 2009 - ExtantFrodo (well, of course, you must be extant - Frodo Lives!): Yep, yours is a real kickass god, way more omnipotent than that piddling little upstart Yahweh. Its truly baffling how that puny tribal dipshit still has such a large fan club, when there so many more impressive deities to choose from. But get THIS -- MY God makes a factorial googolplex to the power of e x pi of universes per every Planck Time interval!!! Can YOURS do THAT? Didnt think so! na na na NA na!! [tongue out]

Anghellik9 Says:

Sep 23, 2009 - Don's contributions to the show were awesome. Saw his evil side

hitballfootler Says:

Oct 23, 2009 - Does anyone know where donexodus has been?

LeopardFrogPilboxhat Says:

Nov 15, 2009 - are you idiots seriously pondering the singularity. Ugghhh

TritonAlias Says:

Nov 16, 2009 - Are you seriously trolling YouTube (even rhetorical questions require question marks)? I'd spell out some grunting noise here, but some of have realized the inefficacy of grunting for communication; we use words now.

LeopardFrogPilboxhat Says:

Nov 17, 2009 - @TritonAlias How about a statement then The singularity is the rapture for people who still hold the religious compulsion